RE: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

Service Oriented Architecture is evolving and means many things to many people. The ESB, a SOA Suite, Mirth and JBOSS are all providing some form of extraction, translation and/or load (ETL) interoperability/communications services by different organizations. They each provide similar; but, not identical services Steve From: whitten.david@gmail.com [mailto:whitten.david@gmail.com] On Behalf Of David Whitten Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 3:56 PM To: Stephen Hufnagel Cc: architecture@groups.osehra.org Subject: Re: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus Could someone clarify, I understood there is a definite difference between an Enterprise Service Bus (ESB), an HL7 message hub (Mirth) and JBOSS (enterprise wide java web services) or are they expected to be interchangeable ? David On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Hufnagel wrote: Good day Nancy et. al., Harris is the current iEHR contractor and they recommend open source Mirth at the local hospitals and IBM WebSphere ESB at the approximately 6 regional sites and the one central site. (see attached) 2014 Phase 1 will demonstrate the ESB, Lab and Immunization capabilities at two sites. The justification for the IBM portions is their superior enterprise management ability to meet the iEHR requirements. The open source community can recommend an alternative approach. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Apache [mailto:apache@groups.osehra.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:03 PM To: architecture@groups.osehra.org Subject: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus I understand that both the DOD and the North Chicago VA are using JBOSS for their ESB. Why is JBOSS not being used to provide an OS ESB for iEHR particularly if both parties in the iEHR have experience with it? If it was found not to be up to the job, has RedHat been asked to address the problems with it? I would be interested in knowing some of the history of this if anyone can provide it. -- Nancy Anthracite -- Full post: http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus Manage my subscriptions: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions Stop emails for this post: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822 -- Full post: http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus Manage my subscriptions: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions Stop emails for this post: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822
like0

Comments

RE: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

Jignesh Patel's picture

David,

Ideally,

Application Server(JBOSS AS 7.1.1.Final) :A runtime for java app. You can
deploy java application

ESB: A software application supports declarively(You don't need to code a
lot) message transformation, routing, business process management etc.
MIRTH fits more in ESB app then a application. There is JBOSS ESB which can
be deployed on JBOSS AS, however JBOSS ESB may not be friendly to support
HL7 messages and you end up coding a lot(which is not you are supposed to
do when you use ESB).

There is another flavor of ESB - Message Broker. It is bit heavy weight and
is self sustained. However it may(or may not) not support BPM.

ETL- Extract,Transform and Load - used to load and extract data to
database. More inclined with DB systems.

SOA - anything application represents as a service(hides underlying
details). This kind of architecture perfect match for cloud/distributed
environment,
Today's world is to create a small chunk of application which will control
its own lifecycle(i..e quite contrary to VistA - a big piece of software
where everything is linked). So this small app can work together complete a
big software solution.

So anything can be used for everything. i.e. you can build a java
application(deployed on JBoss) to do ETL. However it may not be efficient
and required lot of development efforts. So it is more of smart
architectural decision to choose right runtime for right app.

-Jignesh

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Stephen Hufnagel <hufnagels@osehra.org>wrote:

> Service Oriented Architecture is evolving and means many things to many
> people. ****
>
> The ESB, a SOA Suite, Mirth and JBOSS are all providing some form of
> extraction, translation and/or load (ETL) interoperability/communications
> services by different organizations.****
>
> They each provide similar; but, not identical services****
>
> Steve****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* whitten.david@gmail.com [mailto:whitten.david@gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *David Whitten
> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2012 3:56 PM
> *To:* Stephen Hufnagel
> *Cc:* architecture@groups.osehra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Could someone clarify, I understood there is a definite difference between
> an Enterprise Service Bus (ESB), an HL7 message hub (Mirth) and JBOSS
> (enterprise wide java web services)
>
> or are they expected to be interchangeable ?
>
> David****
>
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Hufnagel <hufnagels@osehra.org>
> wrote:****
>
> Good day Nancy et. al.,
>
> Harris is the current iEHR contractor and they recommend open source Mirth
> at the local hospitals and IBM WebSphere ESB at the approximately 6
> regional
> sites and the one central site. (see attached)
> 2014 Phase 1 will demonstrate the ESB, Lab and Immunization capabilities at
> two sites.
> The justification for the IBM portions is their superior enterprise
> management ability to meet the iEHR requirements.
> The open source community can recommend an alternative approach.
>
> Steve****
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Apache [mailto:apache@groups.osehra.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
> Anthracite
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:03 PM
> To: architecture@groups.osehra.org
> Subject: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus
>
> I understand that both the DOD and the North Chicago VA are using JBOSS for
> their ESB. Why is JBOSS not being used to provide an OS ESB for iEHR
> particularly if both parties in the iEHR have experience with it? If it
> was
> found not to be up to the job, has RedHat been asked to address the
> problems
> with it?
>
> I would be interested in knowing some of the history of this if anyone can
> provide it.
>
> --
> Nancy Anthracite
>
>
> --****
>
> Full post:
> http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus
> Manage my subscriptions:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822
>
>
>
> --
> Full post:
> http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus
> Manage my subscriptions:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822****
>
> ** **
>
> --
> Full post:
> http://www.osehra.org/discussion/re-architecture-jboss-and-iehr-enterpri...
> Manage my subscriptions:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/831
>

like0

RE: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

Robert Kilker's picture

Here is a good white paper that further explains this....

From: Apache [mailto:apache@groups.osehra.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Hufnagel
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:23 AM
To: architecture@groups.osehra.org
Subject: [architecture] RE: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

Service Oriented Architecture is evolving and means many things to many people.
The ESB, a SOA Suite, Mirth and JBOSS are all providing some form of extraction, translation and/or load (ETL) interoperability/communications services by different organizations.
They each provide similar; but, not identical services
Steve

From: whitten.david@gmail.com<mailto:whitten.david@gmail.com> [mailto:whitten.david@gmail.com]<mailto:[mailto:whitten.david@gmail.com]> On Behalf Of David Whitten
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 3:56 PM
To: Stephen Hufnagel
Cc: architecture@groups.osehra.org<mailto:architecture@groups.osehra.org>
Subject: Re: [architecture] JBOSS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

Could someone clarify, I understood there is a definite difference between an Enterprise Service Bus (ESB), an HL7 message hub (Mirth) and JBOSS (enterprise wide java web services)

or are they expected to be interchangeable ?

David
On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Stephen Hufnagel <hufnagels@osehra.org<mailto:hufnagels%0d%0a%20@osehra.org>> wrote:
Good day Nancy et. al.,

Harris is the current iEHR contractor and they recommend open source Mirth
at the local hospitals and IBM WebSphere ESB at the approximately 6 regional
sites and the one central site. (see attached)
2014 Phase 1 will demonstrate the ESB, Lab and Immunization capabilities at
two sites.
The justification for the IBM portions is their superior enterprise
management ability to meet the iEHR requirements.
The open source community can recommend an alternative approach.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Apache [mailto:apache@groups.osehra.org<mailto:apache@groups.osehra.org>] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:03 PM
To: architecture@groups.osehra.org<mailto:architecture@groups.osehra.org>
Subject: [architecture] JBO SS and the iEHR Enterprise Service Bus

I understand that both the DOD and the North Chicago VA are using JBOSS for
their ESB. Why is JBOSS not being used to provide an OS ESB for iEHR
particularly if both parties in the iEHR have experience with it? If it was
found not to be up to the job, has RedHat been asked to address the problems
with it?

I would be interested in knowing some of the history of this if anyone can
provide it.

--
Nancy Anthracite

--
Full post:
http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus
Manage my subscriptions: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions
Stop emails for this post:
http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822<http://www.osehra.o...

--
Full post: http://www.osehra.org/discussion/jboss-and-iehr-enterprise-service-bus
Manage my subscriptions: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/subscriptions
Stop emails for this post: http://www.osehra.org/og_mailinglist/unsubscribe/822

like0

Request for further information

Zack Belcher's picture

Hi Nancy, David, et al.,

Sure thing.  I am looking forward to learning from and contributing to this community/forum.   

I agree with a number of the posts I've read so far in that it doesn't quite make sense for an open source Application to rely on an expensive, proprietary software architecture.  Especially when there are viable Open Source alternatives.   In my opinion Professional/Enterprise Open Source offers the best of both worlds between free, community supported open source and  expensive, proprietary offerings. The following is adapted from a Gartner report, "Predicts 2012: Cloud and In-Memory Drive Innovation in Application Platforms," which I would also recommend taking a look at if you have not already. Gartner recommends  that ...
  • organizations should consider that OSS Java EE platforms are more than capable of supporting a variety of mission requirements, ranging from small-scale to large, complex and mission critical deployments 
  • Consider the roles of OSS Java EE platforms within a portfolio of middleware solutions. 
 I'll try to be as succinct as possible in describing the differences between Community and Enterprise as it relates to Red Hat/JBoss.   Although I will focus on JBoss, this model is very similar to that of other Commercial Open Source vendors.   I'll also include a few links below to supporting/additional information. As an analogy, the Fedora is to Red Hat Enterprise Linux development model is as JBoss Community to JBoss Enterprise Middleware.   Most people are aware of the fact that Enterprise open source includes support.  This support includes things like patches, updates, alerts, version upgrades, etc.  Most people are not aware, in my experience of the substantive differences between community and enterprise software (between 'the bits and bytes'), however.      I've provided a comparison, in no way exhaustive, below.   Many of the points were adapted from the Community vs. Enterprise white paper (link listed below). JBoss is not a single product or project at either the community or Enterprise level.   Many of the JBoss Enterprise Platforms have the Enterprise Application Platform as a subset (for example the JBoss Enterprise SOA Platform contains JBoss Enterprise Application Platform + ESB, jBPM, Rules engine) JBoss Community
  • consists of multiple, individually maintained projects (such as  JBoss AS, hibernate, seam, ESB).  
  • Completely Open Source, built on Open Standards
  • Each project has its own dependencies, versions and release dates
  • Focus is on innovation, rather than stability - "release early, release often'
  • When a new version is released, work stops on older versions and the community moves on
  • No official patches or support.  Support usually provided via forums
  • No formal QA process
  • testing covers a minimal number of test configurations
  • no single 'throat to choke' when something goes wrong
JBoss Enterprise Middleware
  • is a portfolio of 'Platforms' (JBoss Enterprise Application Platform, JBoss Enterprise SOA Platform, for example).  
  • Completely Open Source, build on Open Standards
  • Multiple community projects (application server, web frameworks, load balancing, restful services, jBPM, Drools, for example) are integrated into a single code distribution that is configured for Enterprise use.
  • QA tests performed by Red Hat enhance community test suites by adding performance, scalability, availability and reliability testing
  • Integrated and supported management tools  (JBoss Operations Network, for example).
  • Replaces arbitrary dependencies from all projects with their supported equivalent
  • Subscriptions include a single patch and update stream for all components in the platform (even those from communities other than the JBoss Community).  
  • Patches, Security updates, and hot fixes area all certified
  • Code is test and certified on a variety of JVM/operating system and architecture combinations and a range of industry leading DBMS and ISV products (such as governance, monitoring tools).
  • Subscriptions include full, professional, localized software documentation
  • Support can be called proactively for best practices, approaches, etc.   
Source: http://www.jboss.com/pdf/jb-middleware-whitepaper.pdf  (see comparison table starting on page 5).   It is also worth noting that you can continue to use Enterprise Open Source Software even if you do not renew your support subscription (provided that you do not have any other active support subscriptions for that product).  Also, in the case of JBoss, development support is included with the purchase of a production subscription, which is generally orders of magnitude cheaper than the proprietary equivalent.  Source:  http://www.redhat.com/f/pdf/JBossSubscriptionGuide.pdf I think this is important because I believe the benchmark comparisons done thus far have not used Enterprise versions of JBoss that have been properly configured.  With proper performance tuning, Enterprise Open Source software (JBoss) can meet the requirements set forth for this system.    I apologize for the long post - please let me know if anything needs clarification or if there are comments and/or questions.  I am very interested to hear the groups thoughts on using community Open Source vs Enterprise.   Thank you,
Zack  

 

like0

JBoss EAP 6 Install-Fest (JBUG)

Zack Belcher's picture

 

I'd like to extended an invitation to the group to our upcomming JBoss Users Group (JBUG) meeting which will be a "JBoss Install Fest."

Wednesday, August 8, 2012 7PM

For this month's meetup we will take more of a hands-on and interactive approach and cover installing JBoss EAP on MacOS, Fedora Linux and Windows.

We will cover both JBoss AS 5 and AS7, as well as their respective Enterprise equivalents (EAP5, EAP6).  This will also be an opportunity to ask questions/bring up general issues related to differences between Community and Enterprise. [[http://www.meetup.com/DC-JBug/events/68017732/]] (link to sign up) Topics to include:
  • Best practices
  • Proxy configurations
  • Slimming & Tuning JBoss
  • SSL Configuration
  • LDAP Configuration
Refreshments also provided.  AEM Chantilly Office14030 Thunderbolt PlaceSuite 900Chantilly, VA  The D.C. JBUG is the largest in the world (by registered memebers) and is a great opportunity to meet and network with others in the industry.  

 

like0

JBoss ESB

Zack Belcher's picture

Hi Nancy,

My name is Zack Belcher and I work for Vizuri, the commerical division of Applied Engingeering Management Corporation, based in Chanitlly, VA.  We are Open Source advocates and believe in the value of Open Standards.  We are also Premier JBoss Partner and employ industry recognized JBoss experts and code contributors to various Open Source community projects, including JBoss.   

I would like to speak with you regarding your question above and believe that, due to our expierience with JBoss and relationship with Red Hat, we can provide helpful information.

I believe one of the main reasons that JBoss Enterprise is not being used more prevalently (you mentioned and the fact that it is Open Source, built on Open Standards, and supported as a COTS product by Red Hat (the ESB being used throughout the government, as you likely are aware, to support mission critical systems))  is that there is a great deal of confusion regarding community JBoss vs Enterprise JBoss (probably encouraged by non-open source vendors, or Integrators that want to support the community versions themselves).  

The differences between community and enterprise go well beyone one having a support SLA and the other not. And there are performance/integration issues that can result from benchmark testing being performed on community editions.  

We would welcome the the opportunity to provide you with more detailed information and insight in to why we believe JBoss Enterprise is not being considered as much as it should be.   We would also like to hear your thoughts on the situation and perhaps what we can do to help.

This is my first posting so I hope I am not violatiing and rules but my phone # is (540) 840-4923.  Please feel free to give me a call or let me know how best to reach you.  We could arrange a meeting at your facility if that would be helpful.

Thanks and Regards,

Zack Belcher

   zbelcher AT vizuri.com

 

like0